An Interview with Pádraig Mac Lochlainn Sinn Féin TD for Donegal

#2 An Interview with Pádraig Mac Lochlainn Sinn Féin TD for Donegal

Transcript

Grant:

The Irish Concrete Federation lied to me. And they did it in writing!

It's always a bit weird when someone is lying to you and you know it. You can't help feeling suspicious and feel like something is being covered up.

When I returned from my first trip to Donegal in October 2021, I started having a look at the Annual Reports of the Irish Concrete Federation. Their reports are online going back to 2013. I didn't really know if I would find anything interesting in those reports. I opened one of the annual reports and opened up a search box. I wondered what I should search for. Then I typed in the name "Cassidy" and guess what I found!

It turns out that the following 4 words "David Cassidy Cassidy Bros" appeared in a number of the annual reports for the ICF.

And the these words were under the section called "Technical Committee".

So David Cassidy had been a member of the ICF Technical Committee for a number of years.

What's significant about the Technical Committee?

Well the ICF Technical Committee, as part of it's remit, advises the National Standards Authority of Ireland on matters related to concrete.

Mr Cassidy being the owner of a quarry that is allegedly one of the main suppliers of DCB in Donegal is on the Technical Committee of the ICF that advises the National Standards Authority of Ireland or NSAI on concrete related issues. Presumably this includes the NSAI standard IS.465 which dictates how DCB homes should be fixed. And depending on the circumstances, homes can be demolished and completely rebuilt or go through some less expensive remediation options which homeowners, justifiably, don't agree with.

This is a clear conflict of interest.

I'd sent the ICF an email, pretending I didn't know anything, asking about the relationship between the ICF and the NSAI.

This is the reply I got...

"For decades, the ICF has participated on a large number of NSAI consultative committees with many other stakeholder organisations .... We can confirm that David Cassidy has never participated on any ICF representation on any NSAI committee and nor has he attended or played any part in the ICF Technical Committee since March 2016. As you will see from our 2020 Annual Report, Mr Cassidy is not a member of the ICF Technical Committee."

Now I hadn't even mentioned Mr Cassidy's name in my email.

And it is true that that Mr Cassidy is not listed as a member of the Technical Committee in the 2020 annual report of the ICF

It is interesting that the email from the ICF also mentioned that Mr Cassidy has never participated on any ICF representation on any NSAI committee (which could be true) but the ICF went on to say that "nor has he attended or played any part in the ICF Technical Committee since March 2016."

Now if you look at the ICF annual reports you will see that Mr Cassidy was on the ICF Technical Committee in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019.

So why did the ICF lie to me? Maybe to try and minimise the perceived conflict of interest. I hope that that Time Will Tell and eventually the reason will come out.

But getting back to the interview with Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, the Sinn Féin TD from Donegal...

I asked him what his views might be regarding this email I got from the ICF.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah, the, the, I I, I am troubled, um, by the fact that, uh, on the panel, uh, that's reviewing IS.465, and indeed we've had, um,  growing evidence. That's the, the, the current IS.465 was not fit for purpose, uh, in that it, um, only looked for the deleterious material, uh, mica, uh, or, or, um, where, or pyrite, mica or pyrite. Uh, and what has emerged that from the lab tests that have been carried out is that pyrrhotite seems to be the main offender actually, uh, certainly in Donegal. Um, And there'll be a conference on that obviously tomorrow. Um, so, uh, It appears to me, uh, as a layperson, um, based on the evidence I'm presented with that IS.465 as it is now, is not fit for purpose.

Um, That's why it's being reviewed. Um, It does trouble me. Uh, just put it mildly that there are persons, uh, or organizations, uh, on the panel, um, who have either manufactured or represented those who've manufactured defective blocks. Um, And I, I, I, I, I need to get an explanation as to why that's the case from the National Standards Authority of Ireland.

I do appreciate that they would normally cooperate with the industry around the review of standards, maybe on practical grounds, but, um, it, it has caused hurt to homeowners to see, uh, and that's homeowners in the west of Ireland. Uh, to see that their either companies represented, or, uh, consultants who represent companies that have manufactured these blocks.

And, uh, at the, it, it, it is very hurtful, uh, to the families and, um, I have concerns and I have sought to clarify names and details. I have that information now on the public record I intend to pursue as to why, uh, that is the case.

Grant:

I was, I was wondering like how has the defective concrete blocks crisis affected your job as a TD? Has it taken a big part....

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

It's so, it's overwhelming. Um, you know, I, I live in Buncrana. . Um, when I walk out my door and I turn right, just turn to my right, there is, uh, you know, the quarry for, for Cassidys, um, you know, who have  supplied, um, so many of the defective blocks. So I, I'm, you know, visually I'm looking at the, the quarry, but far more important than that, um, You know, so many, you know... Like I live in the epicenter of this disaster. Um, so many people that I know personally, uh, friends, family, uh, are affected. And, um, uh, you know, it, it, it,, it's the biggest issue in my life as a public representative and has been now for many years. Um, What gives me great comfort is that the people who were living in silence with this up until, um, 2021 have found their voice and the people of Donegal got behind them and indeed the people across Ireland.

So it is, uh, it, it, it, it, it's just the biggest issue for me by a, by a mile. Um, It's deeply distressing to talk to people who worked so hard. Did what we asked people to do, to, you know, to build their, their, put the roof over their heads so their families and find themselves in this distress. So, Yeah, so it's a massive issue.

Grant:

Would you be able to share any insights from being in the Dáil about the defective concrete blocks crisis. Is, Is it discussed in the hallways or in the Dáil Bar?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

I, I think, I think the game changer, and I mean mo modern politics, um, is encouraging in that I think more people are realizing the power that they have as citizens. Um, and I think in the era of social media where you can. Uh, do a video, uh, or speak to camera and, and communicate with large numbers of people.

It has been a game changer. You're not relying on the mainstream media.

Uh, So if you look at the campaign in Donegal that really took off in 2021, it was social media, uh, word of mouth. Uh, Then it was feet on the street. Firstly in Donegal, then they made their way to Dublin, uh, in June, 2021. And of course in October was the huge protest.

Well, The one in June was huge, but the one in October was even bigger again. So that has, that has totally changed the dynamic now. Yes. Because of the people rising up and the families rising up and telling their stories. Uh, Telling their stories about what they're going through, bringing, um, journalists into their homes, uh,  showing physically what's happening, um, has been huge.

So, yes, thanks to the people rising up, it is very much, um, a matter of, of, of, of debate and discussion, uh, around Leinster House, and we need to keep it that way.

Grant:

Next I asked a question about pre-legislative scrutiny which is a procedure where bills usually go before a committee to be scrutinised before being passed through the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Why do you think the government wanted to avoid PLS? Was there something they were afraid of? The pre-legislative hearing in terms of committee hearing heads of bill

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah, I, I mean, there's no doubt that they had made a decision that they'd settled on the type of, um, improvements to the original discredited scheme, the so-called 90 / 10 scheme proved to be discredited as anything but 90 / 10 in terms of the limits that were in place. Um, the, the caps, the supports, the whole thing was totally flawed.

So, uh, They were negotiating with the homeowners, um, in Donegal, Mayo and Clare. And they obviously reached a point where they decided this is the type of scheme we're gonna do, and they were gonna just ram it through the Dáil, um, without any pre legislative scrutiny. You remember that we were supposed to have it in, I think we were supposed to see it in February, then March, then it was running on month after month.

And then eventually they finally published the legislation. Um, uh, and we've got very little time to recess. So we, we did obviously get, um, one day of what's called "intensified pre legislative scrutiny". While that wasn't sufficient at all, in my view, at least, it was a chance to expose the gaps in the legislation.

The homeowner's, um, testimony was really powerful. We were able to bring in some of the experts, like the SCSI, Engineers Ireland. And probed the issues. So at least that was something. But then when they took it through the Dáil and the Seanad, it was very much ran through, not enough time, totally inadequate.

And here we are now in November and we still don't see the scheme. The excuse they gave was, time is pressing. We need to get a scheme up running. Here we are in November. So it's been proved that wasn't true. Why did they want to do it? I think that they had decided that they would go so far, it isn't enough. Um, Obviously I and other TDs would've worked on a cross-party basis with the homeowners, uh, around what we call the homeowners amendments, 80 amendments to the legislation.

Uh, They were all rejected. I, I mean, in some cases, incredibly rejected. Uh, People who were saying, "We will compromise. We will downsize our home. Volunteering to downsize our home in order to get a hundred percent redress". I cannot believe that was not accepted by government. So what are we gonna do about it? Uh, We intend, uh, Eoin Ó Broin as our Sinn Féin  housing spokesperson, he's going to introduce amending legislation.

So it's legislation to amend this piece that was passed in July. And essentially what it is, is the homeowner's amendments. Um, And that will be introduced in January, stroke February of 2023. It has to be six months after the legislation is passed by, by the rules of the house, the standing orders. So in January, February, we will go back at this again to try and make this legislation what it should be.

Grant March:

I was wondering what if you guys have thought of some kind of strategy for the future? For example, that legislation, getting that over the line. I mean, there's 13 counties affected now, so.  Do. Have you got some kind of strategy in mind to get the votes?

Well, I think the, the key thing is that, the likes of the Mica Action Group, the homeowners in, um, Mayo and Clare and Donegal that they, um, continue to, you know, engage with the tds, particularly the government tds. Um, I think that it's gonna be really interesting because we were frustrated because we knew we couldn't introduce amending legislation for six months.

But I don't think we would've, I don't think we would've anticipated that. It looks as, as if the actual scheme  will not be up and running by then anyway, which is extraordinary. So we will have a chance to try and amend the scheme, amend the legislation that, that, that, that governs the scheme before it's even up and running.

Even if the government, um, you know, uh, don't accept this amending legislation, I think I think the scheme will, will prove  to be very problematic very quickly. So I think you're gonna have another sort of uprising in Donegal next year. When people realize just how the scheme operates, the new one, it is gonna, uh, fall short by probably tens of thousands.

Um, it'd be interesting to see are they gonna test the concrete foundations? Um, It'll be interesting to see, eh, if they are going to upgrade the, the costings per square meter per square foot, um, in words to ask the Society of Chartered Surveyors of Ireland, the SCSI um, to go back at this and cuz it has to be in line with, with real costs. They also need to raise the cap from 420,000.

Um, So, uh, there's, there's all sorts of question marks, but I, I think the scheme will prove.  very problematic when it is up and running next year. And whether they accept our, our amendments or not immediately, we will keep campaigning to make the scheme work along with the homeowners.

Grant:

What would your advice be to the homeowners to kind of help with that.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Well keep doing what they're doing. Um, I mean, there's a dedicated core. I, I know that no matter what you do in life, it's always a core of people that, that drove the campaign, that step up into leadership roles.  And then you hope you get the wider supporters of the community. So what happened in 2021 was that a number of people stepped up, like Paddy Diver, Michael Doherty, uh, and others.

Um, And, uh, the community came in behind them, uh, in a way that I've never seen before. I mean, for any issue in Donegal, except maybe for cancer care um, back in the day, but this went even beyond that. Um, so, you know, 20,000 people in Dublin. Incredible, uh, support. So what's happened now is that's tailed off, but I wouldn't be anxious about that as long as the core campaigners continue to tell the stories of the homeowners, engage with the media locally and nationally. Obviously engage with their TDs. I think we're probably in a bit of a lull until the actual scheme is up and running. So this enhanced scheme, so when it's up and running and it's been implemented, that's when you're going to see the problems. So when that happens, we need to be ready to go, go at it again and raise the temple. For now, we're just, um, asking questions, probing, probing, trying to see will they consider changes to the scheme. There's some indications recently that the IS.465 review there, there seems to be now an agreement that you can consider pyrrhotite as well as mica and pyrite.

Apparently this is going to happen. Apparently they're going to. We'll see if they allow the testing of foundations. I mean, they have to allow the testing of foundations, I would think.

Grant:

Is there like a specification in the legislation that allows the minister to add extra materials, deleterious materials. My question is does they have to be a specification in the legislation to allow him to add deleterious materials? Or does he just do that like ad hoc?

Pádraigh Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah , I, I'm not certain if he can do that through the regulations, um, uh, once the legislation has been passed or does he have to amend the legislation? I, I mean, I know that when we, we engaged with the minister on this issue. Um, in terms of testing for more than mica or pyrite, he, he indicated repeatedly that he was awaiting the outcome of the IS.465 review.

Now, I, I'm wondering, and I I I can only speculate at this point, um, cuz I don't have all the information as I speak. Um, have they given, um, uh, interim. Um, uh, recommendations to government that allows them to... Right now we have a log jam of hundreds of homes in stage one of the current scheme, um, that can't be progressed because their engineers, uh, are finding pyrrhotite coming up in the tests, but the scheme doesn't allow them to consider that.

Apparently that's going to be expanded. So that would suggest to me that the minister can, through regulations, make provision for that. Um, And to me it absolutely has to happen. It's clear. I mean, I'm a lay person and I can tell that the, the, the lab tests are clearly demonstrating that pyrrhotite, it's actually emerging as, as, as the actual offender and not necessarily mica.

Uh, you know, again  we're lay people, we're relying on, uh, engineers, scientists, geologists, um, uh, to tell us the direction we need to go in. But, But certainly based on the work of the likes, Professor Paul Dunlop, Dr. Eileen Doherty, Dr. Andreas Leeman, the work that they've done at European level, um, the work that colleagues in the United States have been cooperating with them, it suggests to me, Um, that we're gonna have to maybe rename the campaign, not the mica redress, but pyrrhotite, uh, redress.

And what does that mean? That means that, obviously if it's pyrrhotite is the offender, then the prognosis, the solution may need to be, you know, different, which in other words would be you may need to knock down a lot more houses than you, than than you might have originally thought. And if that is the case, in other words, what we do cannot be based on the cost to the state.

It has to be based on what is right. It has to be based on science, uh, and it has to be something that will never come back again. This has to be the end of this misery and nightmare for the families.

Grant:

Going back to the, um, three, two hour meetings that were in lieu of, in quotes, uh, pre legislative scrutiny. Um, It was very significant when an engineer said that he personally knew of two quarries in Wexford that were knowingly selling defective blocks. And that was put on the Dáil record. Um, like there's even a cutoff point of, what was it, January, 2020 maybe that, um, if your house was built after that it won't be in the scheme. What did you think when you heard the engineer come out with that comment?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah, I mean, this is the thing that I think, think is deeply hurtful to homeowners is that even after all that they've been through, after you know, finally getting their message across to the people of Ireland in 2021, and I think everybody in Ireland understands now about the impact of this, that, that, that even after all of that, there does not appear to be anywhere near the, the level of oversight of quarries, the level of building control regulations required, even though the government suggests there is. I mean, the, the fact that that, uh, defective blocks are still being manufactured or, uh, it's been stated by a senior engineer in this country. Apparently that's been reported to building control. I, I certainly hope so. That wasn't certain or clear from the hearing, but I would hope that it has been reported, certainly by the engineer who asserted it.

At least nevermind he talked about TDs, but if he's aware of it or any engineer is aware of it, it should be immediately reported. Um, But yes, I mean, it does cause concern because, I mean, you're, you know, this is not a thing in the past. In other words, this is not a, a legacy issue. It may well be an ongoing issue.

So to me, . Uh, if you are a victim of defective blocks, whether it was 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, or yesterday, then you need to have full redress and access to it. So I think that the understanding all of this is evolving, but the principle has to be very clear. If you are a victim through no fault of your own, of purchasing defective blocks, that is a failure of regulation, of oversight and standards in this state. And the state has to accept responsibility for that. And then you work out separately how you levy, uh, be it the banking sector, be it those who are manufacturing the blocks. You know, we, you know, we, we do need to try and recoup some of that money, but I mean, that's, to be quite honest with you, that's, that's a secondary issue.

For me the primary issue's that you provide redress, the state ensures that happens and how the state recoups up money is the business of the state.

Grant:

Was it you that put in a question about homeowners who purchase secondhand houses, how can they be protected from defective concrete blocks?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah, I, I, I, I have, uh, asked the question, uh, now of two different ministers, the Minister for Housing and the Minister for Justice. Um, in terms of, um, you know, the current, um, uh, I suppose legal framework. How does it protect, uh, home buyers? Um, And uh, you know, both responses would indicate to me that it's down to the purchaser's engineer you know, to, you know, through the, through, through the long established, you know, means, which would be, you know, structural engineer, examination of the building, tests and so on.

Um, Now here's the problem. I would imagine that in Donegal at this stage, anybody purchasing a secondhand home would ensure that it was tested. Indeed, the bank would ask in Donegal that they're tested for, uh, defective products That would happen in Donegal. I I would, I'd be shocked that that's not happening in every instance now at this point. A few, uh, a few years ago, I'm not sure it was happening but as we speak now. But the problem is, is that this is becoming now a much wider issue than Donegal, Mayo, Sligo, um, Clare, Limerick. It's now speculated it could be 13, 14 counties and growing. So my worry would be that while you would have a, an awareness in Donegal, to do it because of just the, the scale of the crisis in this county and others, you may not be aware of it as much down the country.

So my fear would be that there will be people right now purchasing a second, not going through maybe the, the necessary due diligence because the, there's not an awareness in the county that they're living in and find themselves in this nightmare down the, down the road. So I'm not convinced the two responses I've received.

So, uh, that's, that there's enough oversight of this? No, No.

So it'd be up to the purchaser to test the, the blocks first?

Yeah.

Grant:

And is that, isn't that like several thousand euros worth?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah, that's right. Certainly in Donegal, uh, I know people who have, uh, sought to purchase secondhand homes and they've had to pay the cost of the engineers costs. So certainly it's, it's in the, the realms as I understand it, of three, four, 5,000 euro, you know, for a house that you're not even certain you're going to buy.

So it's a, and for people who will be on, maybe if you think about a typical home buyer right now, they don't have a big margin. You know, that there's a clear, um, uh, central bank framework around how much savings, um, you know, how much of a mortgage they can get. They don't have a lot of wriggle room. So if you add on three, four, 5,000, so.

Grant:

And you might see  two or three houses. Um,

Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah.

With the competition that's.

It's, it's not, It's not satisfactory. Uh, I, I, I do think that needs further probing. Yeah. Absolutely.

You know, When we're in the Dáil, when the legislation was being forced through one of the ushers, I was asking him about who the people were above the Cathaoirleach, you know, the journalists there. Were you disappointed with the turnout by the journalists and they didn't seem to be present for the whole meeting, the whole debate and,  Do you have any reflections on media spin? I just wonder what your views in general are.

Yeah, I mean, you could see that that's, um, in 2021. I, I, I mean, it was a phenomenal effort, uh, you know, starting with that core group of homeowners. But they went onto the space of Twitter and, and so they understood that that's where journalists, uh, pay attention to most in terms of the social media space.

And they really started to put large numbers of homeowners onto that Twitter space and insist upon being heard. They would've engaged with journalists. So there, there was clearly a period where the mainstream journalists nationally, um, you know, and, and journalists in general. Um, were coming aware of the scale of this crisis, this scandal, this injustice, and, and their, their stories were being told.

And pressure has been applied in government to do the right thing, but, but there was a turning point whenever the government announces in October of 2021, uh, stroke November, uh, that there, there was going to be a, a, an updated scheme. They talked about 420,000 euro of cap and 2.7 billion, and that was intentional.

And because what they were doing was... the concerned person down the country who is a, you know, a good empathetic Irish citizen saying, you've gotta help them poor people in Donegal, Mayo and Clare. You've gotta help them. You can't abandon them. Whenever they started here, okay, they're getting 420,000 euro, which wasn't the case, as we know, in every, .In every house.

It's, it's, it's it's square metre. Up to a maximum of 420. Um, So many people will not be getting anywhere near 420. But whenever that figure was put out there, that was to create this issue's solved. Now it's fine. Sure you're getting 420,000. It's all fine. It's all good. And that wasn't the case. And there was all sorts of, um, you know, sort of, uh, you know, watch out for the small print in the legislation and issues.

Now I think the government succeeded in quelling the sense of anger. And, and, And a lot of journalists were included in that, that I think switched off from the issue and felt sure this issue sorted now. Um, And they weren't paying attention to the detail, with the honorable exception of some. But I could count on maybe one hand, the amount of journalists who continue to maintain a focus on this issue and, and have an understanding this issue is far from resolved.

Um, So yeah, it is frustrating. How, how fickle, um, that space can be. Um, but we, we, you know, we, we, we will keep at it. Next year we'll tell its own story. When the scheme's up and running,  and the problems will come through again, then I think we will probably have to go back at this on another level again.

Grant:

Sometimes I've wondered, you know, who's in charge in the department? Is it the minister making the decisions or is it the civil servants telling him what to do? And adding on to that if, if Sinn Féin came into power, would you be dealing with a difficult situation with the civil servants, or how do you see that?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah. Mean we, we, We certainly have at the higher echelons of the, of the, the Civil service, public service in Ireland, there, there is a, a conservatism, uh, and there's a sense of, you know, protecting the state for unforeseen consequences, words like that or, um, from liability um, and often that can be quite cruel and cold towards people who are victims.

And in this case, the families across Ireland who purchased effective blocks are victims in the most cruel way. Um, So there is an issue there. Um, The other issue is that you have ministers that are fully on top of their brief. Uh, and I think that with, Eoin Ó Broin, who is our offering to the Irish people as the next minister for housing...

um, I, I think that Owen is ideologically committed, you know, you know, uh, uh, you know, committed to justice. Uh, he, he, He's written a book "Defects", uh, on this very issue, and he has tracked the legislative failures, the political failures, the oversight, the regulation failures that led to this, this, this crisis that is the pyrite crisis in Dublin, north Leinster.

That's the defective block crisis, which is not just the west of Ireland, but a growing part of Ireland. And of course,  the apartment defects, um, the poorly constructed, uh, buildings throughout the country. Most of this comes from the Celtic Tiger era of greed. Uh, and so, you know, we, we, we certainly in Eoin, uh, have somebody who is absolutely committed and would not be bamboozled by civil servants in terms of doing what's right.

Grant:

But the civil servants stay on regardless of whose power is of the case?

Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah, they do. But I mean, to be quite clear, the buck stops with the minister. So the minister has to make the decision, and that's why, uh, democracy, if it's working properly, you know, should have that protection for the citizen. I mean, if, If you're a TD, you're directly elected by the people and you can be directly unelected by the people, um, at the next election.

So you need to listen to your people or you pay the price of losing your seat and losing power. So, um, for a minister or a TD you really need to do what is right or you're out. Um, and, and so we're very clear that, um, we, we hope it doesn't have to take Sinn Féin being in power to do what's right. We will agitate until the next election.

We'll agitate every week, every month to make this right. But if it takes us going into power, so be it. And we, we will, in cooperation with the, with the leading homeowners, we, we will deliver a scheme. Um, that is, that is a just scheme for our people, you

Grant:

Second last question now. Um, Do you have any views on the idea for setting up a mica party?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Well, I mean that, that's very much down to the homeowners. Like we've never advised them on strategy. You know, Obviously they had um, talked about running candidates in election. That is their right. Um, you know, Our job, uh, in Sinn Féin is to assure people as to what we would do to be quite clear about that. Um, Our housing spokesperson Eoin Ó Broin, in a number of interviews on Highland Radio has clearly spelled out what, uh, Sinn Féin would do as opposed to what this government is doing right now. So we'll make that case to the people at the next election. Um, and we've renewed our commitment to a hundred percent. We will publish the legislation to amend the scheme, uh, this legislation now, uh, in the next month, we'll introduce it in January, February next year.

Um, But I suppose to answer your question, we've, I've been quite long winded. That, That's down to the campaigners to decide. I mean, Obviously I hope that from a Sinn Féin perspective, we've demonstrated, uh, you know, clearly enough that by electing as many Sinn Féin TDs as possible, that's the best way to get justice, uh, is to try to ensure a Sinn Féin led government at the next election to do that.

But again, that's down to  the campaign field. That's something they need to do. That's entirely their right and I respect that.

Grant:

I lived in Cork for a long time and the last election there in Cork South Central, forgive me now, I cant pronounce your candidate's name properly, but Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire?

Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah. Yeah.

Grant:

How do you say that properly?

Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire.

Grant:

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire.

And he won on the first count and the current Taoiseach I mean, I think he only got in on the seventh count or something.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah.

Grant:

Can you give us any insights into the Sinn Féin strategy for the next election?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

Yeah. I mean, We need to run more candidates. I mean, you know, we, we, we, we just, we, we had a disappointing local and European elections in 2019 and we therefore based our strategy, in 2020 based on, you know, recent elections. And it turned out, you know, that we, we, we, we just didn't see the level of support that was coming to us.

The people were ahead of us in terms of that election. We won't make that mistake again. We will run, um, the number of candidates required for us to lead the next government. You know, We, we are determined now to, you know, deliver the change that our people needs.

You know, many of our senior TDs, uh, have been around a long time. I mean, I'm, I'm 20 years as public representative of the likes of Pearce Doherty, Mary Lou McDonald, you know, uh, David Cullinane. So many of us you know, have been around for, for 20 years. Uh, so we're not Johnny come latelies. We've worked a long time to give people an alternative. Um, so in terms of Donegal, you know, we'll run at least three candidates, um, in the next election.

We need to, uh, and we'll, we'll seek to elect as many Sinn Féin TDs as possible. And in terms of this project, I mean, I, I think now that it, it probably will take a Sinn Féin led government to deliver a scheme that is the right scheme for people all across this country.

Grant:

That's great. Thank you very much for time.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:

My pleasure.

The next interview

The next interview will be with Josephine Kelly, one of the main admins for Mary Morrison's 2 Facebook groups, and her partner Sean McGee.

They can share some experience of how well or otherwise outer leaf remediation works. I hope you'll tune in to find out how they got on.