The UpSet in Concrete Podcast

This episode consists of 2 interviews recorded with Enda Craig. One was recorded on th 27th November 2022 and a catch-up interview was recorded 8 days ago on the 2nd of April 2023. Much of the discussion was about judicial reviews and about taking issues to Europe. I have added supporting audio from multiple sources. 
Note 1: As a listener, if you think there is anything incorrect in this episode please let me know so that I can take action. 🙏
Note 2: If you are a journalist and your reporting is informed by this podcast and the comprehensive links to source material here, please mention this podcast episode and Backstory.ie in your reporting. 🙏
The case of "Doherty v Referendum Commission"...------------------------------------------------... is a legal case that took place in Ireland in 2012.
In 2012, the Irish government proposed a referendum on a European Union treaty, called the Fiscal Stability Treaty. The treaty aimed to strengthen fiscal discipline and coordination among the EU member states in response to the Eurozone debt crisis. The Irish government established a Referendum Commission to provide information to voters about the treaty and the referendum process.
Pearse Doherty, a member of the Irish parliament and a member of the Sinn Féin political party, challenged the impartiality of the Referendum Commission in the High Court. He claimed that the Commission was biased in favour of a "Yes" vote and that it was acting outside of its statutory powers.
Doherty argued that the Commission had used public funds to produce material that promoted a "Yes" vote, and that it had failed to provide balanced information to voters. He also claimed that the Commission had exceeded its statutory powers by providing information about the treaty's implications for Ireland's membership of the European Union.
The High Court rejected Doherty's claims and found that the Referendum Commission had acted impartially and within its statutory powers. Doherty appealed the decision to the Supreme Court, but the Court also dismissed his appeal.
The outcome of the case confirmed the independence and impartiality of the Referendum Commission and its role in providing information to voters on important issues such as EU treaties. The case also highlighted the importance of transparency and fairness in referendum campaigns.
the case of "Pringle v The Government of Ireland"...----------------------------------------------------... is a legal case that was heard in the Supreme Court of Ireland in 2012.
The case was brought by Thomas Pringle, an independent member of the Irish parliament, who challenged the constitutionality of Ireland's participation in the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), a mechanism set up to provide financial assistance to EU member states in financial difficulty.
Pringle argued that the ESM was unconstitutional under Irish law because it transferred significant powers and functions of the Irish state to an international organization without the approval of the Irish people through a referendum. He argued that this violated the principle of popular sovereignty, which is enshrined in the Irish Constitution.
The government of Ireland, which was the primary defendant in the case, argued that Ireland's participation in the ESM was necessary to address the financial crisis in the Eurozone and that it was consistent with Ireland's obligations under EU law.
The Supreme Court ultimately ruled in favor of Pringle, finding that the government's decision to participate in the ESM without holding a referendum was unconstitutional. The Court held that the ESM treaty represented a significant transfer of sovereignty from the Irish state to an international organization, and that this transfer of powers required the approval of the Irish people through a referendum.
The outcome of the case was significant because it established an important precedent for the protection of the principle of popular sovereignty in Irish constitutional law. It also highlighted the tension between Ireland's obligations under EU law and its constitutional commitment to popular sovereignty. The case led to a referendum on the ESM treaty, which was held in Ireland in 2012 and was passed by the Irish people with a large majority.
NSAI I.S. 465:2018+A1:2020 - Assessment, testing and categorisation of damaged buildings incorporating concrete blocks containing certain deleterious materials and Amendment 1:2020https://shop.standards.ie/en-ie/standards/i-s-465-2018-a1-2020-1136409_saig_nsai_nsai_2889155/
NSAI I.S. EN 771-3:2011+A1:201 - Specification for masonry units -Part 3: Aggregate concrete masonry units (Masonry unit = concrete block)https://shop.standards.ie/en-ie/standards/i-s-en-771-3-2011-a1-2015-870940_saig_nsai_nsai_2983456/
NSAI I.S. EN 12620:2002+A1:2008 - Aggregates for concretehttps://shop.standards.ie/en-ie/standards/i-s-en-12620-2002-a1-2008-858169_saig_nsai_nsai_2983694/
2017 Report of Expert Working Group on Defective Concrete Blockshttps://assets.gov.ie/100218/78fd81fe-ab44-441b-ba10-6a9df4434c48.pdf   Answer to Pádraig Mac Lochlainn's question asking who is on the panel that designed IS.465https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-07-07/163
Dr Andreas Leeman's talk - " The mica crisis in Donegal - a case of internal sulphate attack"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXyP-xbe-20&t=19711s
Robbie Goodhue's talk "Water in masonry concrete"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXyP-xbe-20&t=23041s
RTÉ Radio 1 This Week interview by Angus Cox of engineer, Aidan O'Connellhttps://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22089005/
Highland Radio interview with Cllr Martin McDermotthttps://highlandradio.com/2022/11/09/defective-concrete-blocks-redress-process-set-to-move-again/
Greg Hughes Nine til Noon Show in Brussels with MEP Luke Ming Flanaganhttps://youtu.be/YNokfbw0ox0?t=1141
Profile of Peter Sweetman by Mick Clifford in the Irish Examinerhttps://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40806339.html

Mary Connors and Roisín Gallagher discussed what happened during the week with the Irish Defective Concrete Blocks crisis from their personal perspectives.
Inishowen Independent article: SEMI Demolish - the demolition of half of a semi-detached househttps://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk//get_image.aspx?newportal=true&w=600&pbid=06368186-2dd1-4c7a-97db-435c9cf42040&
Irish Times article: Ministers overruled officials who believed €1bn could be shaved from cost of apartment defects schemehttps://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/housing-planning/2023/03/20/ministers-overruled-officials-who-believed-1bn-could-be-shaved-from-apartment-defects-scheme/
Dr Karen Kirby (Ulster University, School of Psychology) delivered a talk titled Measuring the scale of the mental health & well-being impact of affected homeowners in Irelandhttps://youtu.be/lXyP-xbe-20?t=14706
Angeline Ruddy (Secondary school teacher, Moville Community College) delivers talk titled School Testimony - The impacts of defective concrete blocks on the lives of secondary school studentshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXyP-xbe-20&t=12813s
Here is a complete index to all the individual speakers at the Letterkenny Concrete Conference (organised by Professor Paul Dunlop and other) that took place on the 15th November 2022https://backstory.ie/dcb_conf_index.html
Redress Focus Groups on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/redress.focus.groups
Redress Focus Groups on Twitter:https://twitter.com/FocusRedress
Redress Focus Groups Email:Email: redressvolunteers@gmail.com 

Here is a short 5m bonus episode which is just to provide a quick update on the Coleman Legal case.
On the 27th February 2023 I attended the Commercial Court where Coleman Legal was presenting the pathfinder cases of 6 homeowners before Judge Denis McDonald. Barristers for the respondents Cassidy Brothers' quarry, Donegal County Council and the National Standards Authority were present.

On the 21st February 2023, a cross party group of Donegal County councillors went to protest about the Defective Concrete Blocks crisis outside Dáil Éireann. Four councillors were kind enough to do an interview with me. They were
Albert Doherty a Sinn Féin councillor from the municipal district Inishowen
Noel Jordan a Sinn Féin councillor from the municipal district Donegal
John Shéamuis Ó Fearraigh a Sinn Féin councillor from the municipal district Glenties, and
Martin McDermott a Fianna Fáil councillor from the municipal district of Inishowen
I don't believe there were any other Fianna Fáil councillors or any Fine Gael councillors present when I was there. But I did only arrive at about 1:15 and the councillors had been there since 12 midday. So I most likely would've been able to talk to them had I arrived earlier.
There were no other journalists with cameras or microphones present when I was there and I didn't see anyone taking notes, although journalists may have been there before I arrived.

Introduction
I spent a few hours with The Lone Wolf (Pavan) and Patrick McLaughlin at one of their morning protests, against the quarry allegedly responsible for most of the crumbling homes in Inishowen, at the top of Buncrana town back in November 2022. We also did an "update" interview over the phone a few days ago to bring things up-to-date.
Some of the things we spoke about in November 2022 included the Concrete Conference which took place in Letterkenny (2022-11-15), inconsistencies and problems with the old 90/10 and new so-called "Enchanced" scheme, is living with a Defective Concrete Block home worse than a death in the family?, the stupidity of the 40 year guarantee. I mentioned how the State tried to deny citizens their rights in the past (Vicky Phelan regarding the cervical cancer tragedy and Louise O'Keeffe who had to go to Europe to get the State to recognise it had failed children who were abused in schools). The Lone Wolf and Patrick spoke of some of the stories that they've heard about how Defective Concrete Blocks have affected other home owners. Would you build a concrete block home again? The Lone Wolf details how Defective Concrete Blocks have affected him and his family. He also tells the story of how the Lone Wolf came to be in existence.
We had a follow up interview online a few days ago which I hope I've edited to highlight new information on topics we hadn't gone into before. There is a particularly revealing piece of audio (thanks for that Patrick) of Charlie McConalogue answering the questions about the success or failures of Options 2, 3, 4 and 5 which involve leaving a home in place and messing around with the inner and/or outer leaf walls.
I hope I haven't made any mistakes. If you find something that you think is inaccurate, please let me know at grantmarch@backstory.ie so that I can fix it. Thanks very much. 🙏
Links
2022-11-08 William & Grainne Doherty
The full interview with the couple with Greg Hughes on the Highland Radio YouTube channel
https://youtu.be/mCIW3F7fPZs?t=1774
2022-01-26 Inclusion of works already carried out retrospectively in the Enhance scheme
Eoin Ó Broin, Sinn Féin and Minister Darragh O'Brien, Fianna Fáil on including works already carried out retrospectively in the Enhanced DCB scheme
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2023-01-26/speech/116/
https://youtu.be/0EvkEWDwl1I?t=6986
2022-11-5 Defective Concrete Blocks Conference
Here is a clickable index to all speakers at the Defective Concrete Blocks conference that took place in Letterkenny on the 15th December 2022
https://backstory.ie/dcb_conf_index.html
2018-02-01 SEANAD Varadkar talks about FG new politics reform incl pre-legislative scrutiny
https://youtu.be/UCR92tv3ahk?list=PLSFMt99qUvkBSEGfsilXtYFxBAHE7iTiQ&t=59
2022-12-06 Pádraig Mac Lochlainn asks National Building Control Office / Market Surveillance Office if "the quarry" had been audited
https://youtu.be/WJEJjygQvFI?t=5424
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage/2022-12-06/speech/167/
2022-11-15 Angeline Ruddy (Secondary school teacher, Moville Community College) delivers talk titled School Testimony - The impacts of defective concrete blocks on the lives of secondary school students
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXyP-xbe-20&t=12813s
2022-11-15 Joe Morgan reads a talk written by an Anonymous Affected Business Owner from Donegal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXyP-xbe-20&t=15690s
Dr Karen Kirby (Ulster University, School of Psychology) delivered a talk titled Measuring the scale of the mental health & well-being impact of affected homeowners in Ireland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXyP-xbe-20&t=14706s
2022-06-23 Engineer Aidan O'Connell saying that there are only a few bad apples in the construction industry (worth hearing again, IMHO)
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage/2022-06-23/speech/316/
TODO: Upload full video or link to current video
2023-01-26 Paul Murphy saying "This is not a few bad apples in the construction industry"
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2023-01-26/speech/189/
https://youtu.be/0EvkEWDwl1I?t=11007
2022-12-06 Fianna Fáil Senator, Mary Fitzpatrick, asking the National Building Control / Market Surveillance office how their quarry audit was able to achieve 100% compliance with regulations (Worth hearing again, IMHO)
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage/2022-12-06/speech/8/
2022-12-06 Pádraig Mac Lochlainn tries to get a simple answer as to whether or not the "quarry that was responsible for the vast majority of defective blocks used in Donegal" were tested.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage/2022-12-06/speech/171/
https://youtu.be/WJEJjygQvFI?t=5423
2022-11-15 Highland Radio John O'Connor Housing Liaison car crash interview with Greg Hughes
https://youtu.be/iU2ZvQvGreM?t=9630
This was a special broadcast on the day that the Concrete Conference was held in the Clanree Hotel in Letterkenny. There are many interviews related to the conference. To watch the show from the beginning, see
https://youtu.be/iU2ZvQvGreM
"Vicky" documentary on Vicky Phelan
Please support the film maker by watching the documentary for €7.99 online here:
https://www.ifihome.ie/film/vicky/
Louise O'Keeffe
2014 An emotional Louise O'Keeffe explains how she feels having won her school child abuse case in Europe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MleRd8r6_Iw
2015-01-16 Louise O'Keeffe explains how the Government should have accepted responsibility instead of fighting her all the way to Europehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMTjVi635qM
2014-01-30 Exchange between Mary Lou McDonald and Tánaiste Eamonn Gilmore (Labour Party) in a Government led by Enda Kenny (Fine Gael):https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2014-01-30/speech/105/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsFrtiX3Tjw TODO YouTube link change from TEMPORARY LINK to long term link
The Government in 2014:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_31st_D%C3%A1il
2022-11-21 Cork abuse survivor: Any inquiry into abuse in schools must probe State's own accountability : Irish Examinerhttps://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41011877.html
Dept of Housing
2021-11-30 Defective Concrete Blocks Grant Scheme: Your Questions Answeredhttps://web.archive.org/web/20220114101510/https://assets.gov.ie/205870/4fa51a82-fdab-44d7-943d-038fc71dd194.pdf
2022-10-07 Defective Concrete Blocks Grant Scheme: Your Questions Answeredhttps://assets.gov.ie/205870/4fa51a82-fdab-44d7-943d-038fc71dd194.pdf
2022-02-07 Terms Of Reference For SCSI Report On Construction Costs For The Defective Concrete Block Scheme
https://scsi.ie/terms-of-reference-for-scsi-report-on-construction-costs-for-the-defective-concrete-block-scheme/
SEAI Home Energy Grants Overview
https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/

An interview with Josephine Kelly and Sean McGee in two parts.
Firstly, Josephine and Sean invited me to their home in November 2022 - the day before the Concrete Conference in Letterkenny.
They told me of their own experience of replacing the outer leaf of their home at their own cost before any schemes had been set up.
And of course we discussed many other issues concerning Defective Concrete Blocks.
Secondly, we recorded a remote interview we did just a few days ago to get an update of their view of what had happened during the last week.
It was the week that the Defective Apartment scheme was announced and when Cian O'Callaghan of the Social Democrats pointed out to Housing Minister O'Brien that the Minister had managed to underspend monies for Housing to the tune of just under €1 billion last year.LINKSIf you'd like to do some further research, here are links for the items that we discussed (where available)
RTE Prime Time on "Mica" from 2016
If you do a search for "pyrrhotite" in the National Standards Authority of Ireland Standard for the use of aggregates in concrete, you'll see that the amount of pyrrhotite allowed is less than 0.1%
Here is a clickable index to all speakers at the Defective Concrete Blocks conference that took place in Letterkenny on the 15th December 2022
Engineer Aidan O'Connell saying that he knows of quarries currently knowingly still selling defective concrete blocks
Here is the Chair of the Expert Working Group on Defective Blocks, Paul Forde, in June 2022, saying that it won't be possible to know whether or not foundations should be included until NSAI reports from it's investigation into the matter. Then he adds, with no scientific basis whatsoever, that he doesn't have any personal experience of problems in foundations due to pyrrhotite.
Here engineer Aidan O'Connell backing up Mr Forde at the same committee meeting, saying that he believes and is  "relatively comfortable" that there won't be any problems with foundations. 
On the same day, Housing Minister Darragh O'Brien says that "it is understood" that foundations are not affected. The Minister is saying he wants to push on with legislation based on the opinions of Mr Forde and Mr O'Connell even though the NSAI has not reported back any scientific evidence. This policy says that homes could be built on problem foundations. 
2022 Defective Concrete Blocks Grant Scheme: Your Questions Answered 
A Google search for Connecticut and pyrrhotite
Cornwall Council - A guide to Mundic block
Mundic on Wikipedia
Petrolab Testing Service in Cornwall, EnglandPetrolab has done a lot of testing for homeowners in Ireland. How did this come to be? Not sure? But their experience of the local Mundic issue which includes iron sulphide problems might be why some engineers may have recommended Petrolab to Irish homeowners with Defective Concrete Blocks.
A list of who is on the IS.465 Committee and who has left or been removed from it.
Here are the 2 Facebook Groups Josephine helps administer...
Redress/Compensation for Mica/Pyrite/Sulphate Victims Facebook Group
100%Redress/Compensation for Mica/Pyrite/Sulphate Victims
Defects in Apartments Report of the Working Group to Examine Defects in Housing
Charlie McConalogue on Highland Radio regarding Defective Apartments and Retrospection that Will Apply to Defective Concrete Block Homeowners

#2 An Interview with Pádraig Mac Lochlainn Sinn Féin TD for Donegal
Transcript
Grant:
The Irish Concrete Federation lied to me. And they did it in writing!
It's always a bit weird when someone is lying to you and you know it. You can't help feeling suspicious and feel like something is being covered up.
When I returned from my first trip to Donegal in October 2021, I started having a look at the Annual Reports of the Irish Concrete Federation. Their reports are online going back to 2013. I didn't really know if I would find anything interesting in those reports. I opened one of the annual reports and opened up a search box. I wondered what I should search for. Then I typed in the name "Cassidy" and guess what I found!
It turns out that the following 4 words "David Cassidy Cassidy Bros" appeared in a number of the annual reports for the ICF.
And the these words were under the section called "Technical Committee".
So David Cassidy had been a member of the ICF Technical Committee for a number of years.
What's significant about the Technical Committee?
Well the ICF Technical Committee, as part of it's remit, advises the National Standards Authority of Ireland on matters related to concrete.
Mr Cassidy being the owner of a quarry that is allegedly one of the main suppliers of DCB in Donegal is on the Technical Committee of the ICF that advises the National Standards Authority of Ireland or NSAI on concrete related issues. Presumably this includes the NSAI standard IS.465 which dictates how DCB homes should be fixed. And depending on the circumstances, homes can be demolished and completely rebuilt or go through some less expensive remediation options which homeowners, justifiably, don't agree with.
This is a clear conflict of interest.
I'd sent the ICF an email, pretending I didn't know anything, asking about the relationship between the ICF and the NSAI.
This is the reply I got...
"For decades, the ICF has participated on a large number of NSAI consultative committees with many other stakeholder organisations .... We can confirm that David Cassidy has never participated on any ICF representation on any NSAI committee and nor has he attended or played any part in the ICF Technical Committee since March 2016. As you will see from our 2020 Annual Report, Mr Cassidy is not a member of the ICF Technical Committee."
Now I hadn't even mentioned Mr Cassidy's name in my email.
And it is true that that Mr Cassidy is not listed as a member of the Technical Committee in the 2020 annual report of the ICF
It is interesting that the email from the ICF also mentioned that Mr Cassidy has never participated on any ICF representation on any NSAI committee (which could be true) but the ICF went on to say that "nor has he attended or played any part in the ICF Technical Committee since March 2016."
Now if you look at the ICF annual reports you will see that Mr Cassidy was on the ICF Technical Committee in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019.
So why did the ICF lie to me? Maybe to try and minimise the perceived conflict of interest. I hope that that Time Will Tell and eventually the reason will come out.
But getting back to the interview with Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, the Sinn Féin TD from Donegal...
I asked him what his views might be regarding this email I got from the ICF.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah, the, the, I I, I am troubled, um, by the fact that, uh, on the panel, uh, that's reviewing IS.465, and indeed we've had, um,  growing evidence. That's the, the, the current IS.465 was not fit for purpose, uh, in that it, um, only looked for the deleterious material, uh, mica, uh, or, or, um, where, or pyrite, mica or pyrite. Uh, and what has emerged that from the lab tests that have been carried out is that pyrrhotite seems to be the main offender actually, uh, certainly in Donegal. Um, And there'll be a conference on that obviously tomorrow. Um, so, uh, It appears to me, uh, as a layperson, um, based on the evidence I'm presented with that IS.465 as it is now, is not fit for purpose.
Um, That's why it's being reviewed. Um, It does trouble me. Uh, just put it mildly that there are persons, uh, or organizations, uh, on the panel, um, who have either manufactured or represented those who've manufactured defective blocks. Um, And I, I, I, I, I need to get an explanation as to why that's the case from the National Standards Authority of Ireland.
I do appreciate that they would normally cooperate with the industry around the review of standards, maybe on practical grounds, but, um, it, it has caused hurt to homeowners to see, uh, and that's homeowners in the west of Ireland. Uh, to see that their either companies represented, or, uh, consultants who represent companies that have manufactured these blocks.
And, uh, at the, it, it, it is very hurtful, uh, to the families and, um, I have concerns and I have sought to clarify names and details. I have that information now on the public record I intend to pursue as to why, uh, that is the case.
Grant:
I was, I was wondering like how has the defective concrete blocks crisis affected your job as a TD? Has it taken a big part....
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
It's so, it's overwhelming. Um, you know, I, I live in Buncrana. . Um, when I walk out my door and I turn right, just turn to my right, there is, uh, you know, the quarry for, for Cassidys, um, you know, who have  supplied, um, so many of the defective blocks. So I, I'm, you know, visually I'm looking at the, the quarry, but far more important than that, um, You know, so many, you know... Like I live in the epicenter of this disaster. Um, so many people that I know personally, uh, friends, family, uh, are affected. And, um, uh, you know, it, it, it,, it's the biggest issue in my life as a public representative and has been now for many years. Um, What gives me great comfort is that the people who were living in silence with this up until, um, 2021 have found their voice and the people of Donegal got behind them and indeed the people across Ireland.
So it is, uh, it, it, it, it, it's just the biggest issue for me by a, by a mile. Um, It's deeply distressing to talk to people who worked so hard. Did what we asked people to do, to, you know, to build their, their, put the roof over their heads so their families and find themselves in this distress. So, Yeah, so it's a massive issue.
Grant:
Would you be able to share any insights from being in the Dáil about the defective concrete blocks crisis. Is, Is it discussed in the hallways or in the Dáil Bar?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
I, I think, I think the game changer, and I mean mo modern politics, um, is encouraging in that I think more people are realizing the power that they have as citizens. Um, and I think in the era of social media where you can. Uh, do a video, uh, or speak to camera and, and communicate with large numbers of people.
It has been a game changer. You're not relying on the mainstream media.
Uh, So if you look at the campaign in Donegal that really took off in 2021, it was social media, uh, word of mouth. Uh, Then it was feet on the street. Firstly in Donegal, then they made their way to Dublin, uh, in June, 2021. And of course in October was the huge protest.
Well, The one in June was huge, but the one in October was even bigger again. So that has, that has totally changed the dynamic now. Yes. Because of the people rising up and the families rising up and telling their stories. Uh, Telling their stories about what they're going through, bringing, um, journalists into their homes, uh,  showing physically what's happening, um, has been huge.
So, yes, thanks to the people rising up, it is very much, um, a matter of, of, of, of debate and discussion, uh, around Leinster House, and we need to keep it that way.
Grant:
Next I asked a question about pre-legislative scrutiny which is a procedure where bills usually go before a committee to be scrutinised before being passed through the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Why do you think the government wanted to avoid PLS? Was there something they were afraid of? The pre-legislative hearing in terms of committee hearing heads of bill
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah, I, I mean, there's no doubt that they had made a decision that they'd settled on the type of, um, improvements to the original discredited scheme, the so-called 90 / 10 scheme proved to be discredited as anything but 90 / 10 in terms of the limits that were in place. Um, the, the caps, the supports, the whole thing was totally flawed.
So, uh, They were negotiating with the homeowners, um, in Donegal, Mayo and Clare. And they obviously reached a point where they decided this is the type of scheme we're gonna do, and they were gonna just ram it through the Dáil, um, without any pre legislative scrutiny. You remember that we were supposed to have it in, I think we were supposed to see it in February, then March, then it was running on month after month.
And then eventually they finally published the legislation. Um, uh, and we've got very little time to recess. So we, we did obviously get, um, one day of what's called "intensified pre legislative scrutiny". While that wasn't sufficient at all, in my view, at least, it was a chance to expose the gaps in the legislation.
The homeowner's, um, testimony was really powerful. We were able to bring in some of the experts, like the SCSI, Engineers Ireland. And probed the issues. So at least that was something. But then when they took it through the Dáil and the Seanad, it was very much ran through, not enough time, totally inadequate.
And here we are now in November and we still don't see the scheme. The excuse they gave was, time is pressing. We need to get a scheme up running. Here we are in November. So it's been proved that wasn't true. Why did they want to do it? I think that they had decided that they would go so far, it isn't enough. Um, Obviously I and other TDs would've worked on a cross-party basis with the homeowners, uh, around what we call the homeowners amendments, 80 amendments to the legislation.
Uh, They were all rejected. I, I mean, in some cases, incredibly rejected. Uh, People who were saying, "We will compromise. We will downsize our home. Volunteering to downsize our home in order to get a hundred percent redress". I cannot believe that was not accepted by government. So what are we gonna do about it? Uh, We intend, uh, Eoin Ó Broin as our Sinn Féin  housing spokesperson, he's going to introduce amending legislation.
So it's legislation to amend this piece that was passed in July. And essentially what it is, is the homeowner's amendments. Um, And that will be introduced in January, stroke February of 2023. It has to be six months after the legislation is passed by, by the rules of the house, the standing orders. So in January, February, we will go back at this again to try and make this legislation what it should be.
Grant March:
I was wondering what if you guys have thought of some kind of strategy for the future? For example, that legislation, getting that over the line. I mean, there's 13 counties affected now, so.  Do. Have you got some kind of strategy in mind to get the votes?
Well, I think the, the key thing is that, the likes of the Mica Action Group, the homeowners in, um, Mayo and Clare and Donegal that they, um, continue to, you know, engage with the tds, particularly the government tds. Um, I think that it's gonna be really interesting because we were frustrated because we knew we couldn't introduce amending legislation for six months.
But I don't think we would've, I don't think we would've anticipated that. It looks as, as if the actual scheme  will not be up and running by then anyway, which is extraordinary. So we will have a chance to try and amend the scheme, amend the legislation that, that, that, that governs the scheme before it's even up and running.
Even if the government, um, you know, uh, don't accept this amending legislation, I think I think the scheme will, will prove  to be very problematic very quickly. So I think you're gonna have another sort of uprising in Donegal next year. When people realize just how the scheme operates, the new one, it is gonna, uh, fall short by probably tens of thousands.
Um, it'd be interesting to see are they gonna test the concrete foundations? Um, It'll be interesting to see, eh, if they are going to upgrade the, the costings per square meter per square foot, um, in words to ask the Society of Chartered Surveyors of Ireland, the SCSI um, to go back at this and cuz it has to be in line with, with real costs. They also need to raise the cap from 420,000.
Um, So, uh, there's, there's all sorts of question marks, but I, I think the scheme will prove.  very problematic when it is up and running next year. And whether they accept our, our amendments or not immediately, we will keep campaigning to make the scheme work along with the homeowners.
Grant:
What would your advice be to the homeowners to kind of help with that.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Well keep doing what they're doing. Um, I mean, there's a dedicated core. I, I know that no matter what you do in life, it's always a core of people that, that drove the campaign, that step up into leadership roles.  And then you hope you get the wider supporters of the community. So what happened in 2021 was that a number of people stepped up, like Paddy Diver, Michael Doherty, uh, and others.
Um, And, uh, the community came in behind them, uh, in a way that I've never seen before. I mean, for any issue in Donegal, except maybe for cancer care um, back in the day, but this went even beyond that. Um, so, you know, 20,000 people in Dublin. Incredible, uh, support. So what's happened now is that's tailed off, but I wouldn't be anxious about that as long as the core campaigners continue to tell the stories of the homeowners, engage with the media locally and nationally. Obviously engage with their TDs. I think we're probably in a bit of a lull until the actual scheme is up and running. So this enhanced scheme, so when it's up and running and it's been implemented, that's when you're going to see the problems. So when that happens, we need to be ready to go, go at it again and raise the temple. For now, we're just, um, asking questions, probing, probing, trying to see will they consider changes to the scheme. There's some indications recently that the IS.465 review there, there seems to be now an agreement that you can consider pyrrhotite as well as mica and pyrite.
Apparently this is going to happen. Apparently they're going to. We'll see if they allow the testing of foundations. I mean, they have to allow the testing of foundations, I would think.
Grant:
Is there like a specification in the legislation that allows the minister to add extra materials, deleterious materials. My question is does they have to be a specification in the legislation to allow him to add deleterious materials? Or does he just do that like ad hoc?
Pádraigh Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah , I, I'm not certain if he can do that through the regulations, um, uh, once the legislation has been passed or does he have to amend the legislation? I, I mean, I know that when we, we engaged with the minister on this issue. Um, in terms of testing for more than mica or pyrite, he, he indicated repeatedly that he was awaiting the outcome of the IS.465 review.
Now, I, I'm wondering, and I I I can only speculate at this point, um, cuz I don't have all the information as I speak. Um, have they given, um, uh, interim. Um, uh, recommendations to government that allows them to... Right now we have a log jam of hundreds of homes in stage one of the current scheme, um, that can't be progressed because their engineers, uh, are finding pyrrhotite coming up in the tests, but the scheme doesn't allow them to consider that.
Apparently that's going to be expanded. So that would suggest to me that the minister can, through regulations, make provision for that. Um, And to me it absolutely has to happen. It's clear. I mean, I'm a lay person and I can tell that the, the, the lab tests are clearly demonstrating that pyrrhotite, it's actually emerging as, as, as the actual offender and not necessarily mica.
Uh, you know, again  we're lay people, we're relying on, uh, engineers, scientists, geologists, um, uh, to tell us the direction we need to go in. But, But certainly based on the work of the likes, Professor Paul Dunlop, Dr. Eileen Doherty, Dr. Andreas Leeman, the work that they've done at European level, um, the work that colleagues in the United States have been cooperating with them, it suggests to me, Um, that we're gonna have to maybe rename the campaign, not the mica redress, but pyrrhotite, uh, redress.
And what does that mean? That means that, obviously if it's pyrrhotite is the offender, then the prognosis, the solution may need to be, you know, different, which in other words would be you may need to knock down a lot more houses than you, than than you might have originally thought. And if that is the case, in other words, what we do cannot be based on the cost to the state.
It has to be based on what is right. It has to be based on science, uh, and it has to be something that will never come back again. This has to be the end of this misery and nightmare for the families.
Grant:
Going back to the, um, three, two hour meetings that were in lieu of, in quotes, uh, pre legislative scrutiny. Um, It was very significant when an engineer said that he personally knew of two quarries in Wexford that were knowingly selling defective blocks. And that was put on the Dáil record. Um, like there's even a cutoff point of, what was it, January, 2020 maybe that, um, if your house was built after that it won't be in the scheme. What did you think when you heard the engineer come out with that comment?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah, I mean, this is the thing that I think, think is deeply hurtful to homeowners is that even after all that they've been through, after you know, finally getting their message across to the people of Ireland in 2021, and I think everybody in Ireland understands now about the impact of this, that, that, that even after all of that, there does not appear to be anywhere near the, the level of oversight of quarries, the level of building control regulations required, even though the government suggests there is. I mean, the, the fact that that, uh, defective blocks are still being manufactured or, uh, it's been stated by a senior engineer in this country. Apparently that's been reported to building control. I, I certainly hope so. That wasn't certain or clear from the hearing, but I would hope that it has been reported, certainly by the engineer who asserted it.
At least nevermind he talked about TDs, but if he's aware of it or any engineer is aware of it, it should be immediately reported. Um, But yes, I mean, it does cause concern because, I mean, you're, you know, this is not a thing in the past. In other words, this is not a, a legacy issue. It may well be an ongoing issue.
So to me, . Uh, if you are a victim of defective blocks, whether it was 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, or yesterday, then you need to have full redress and access to it. So I think that the understanding all of this is evolving, but the principle has to be very clear. If you are a victim through no fault of your own, of purchasing defective blocks, that is a failure of regulation, of oversight and standards in this state. And the state has to accept responsibility for that. And then you work out separately how you levy, uh, be it the banking sector, be it those who are manufacturing the blocks. You know, we, you know, we, we do need to try and recoup some of that money, but I mean, that's, to be quite honest with you, that's, that's a secondary issue.
For me the primary issue's that you provide redress, the state ensures that happens and how the state recoups up money is the business of the state.
Grant:
Was it you that put in a question about homeowners who purchase secondhand houses, how can they be protected from defective concrete blocks?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah, I, I, I, I have, uh, asked the question, uh, now of two different ministers, the Minister for Housing and the Minister for Justice. Um, in terms of, um, you know, the current, um, uh, I suppose legal framework. How does it protect, uh, home buyers? Um, And uh, you know, both responses would indicate to me that it's down to the purchaser's engineer you know, to, you know, through the, through, through the long established, you know, means, which would be, you know, structural engineer, examination of the building, tests and so on.
Um, Now here's the problem. I would imagine that in Donegal at this stage, anybody purchasing a secondhand home would ensure that it was tested. Indeed, the bank would ask in Donegal that they're tested for, uh, defective products That would happen in Donegal. I I would, I'd be shocked that that's not happening in every instance now at this point. A few, uh, a few years ago, I'm not sure it was happening but as we speak now. But the problem is, is that this is becoming now a much wider issue than Donegal, Mayo, Sligo, um, Clare, Limerick. It's now speculated it could be 13, 14 counties and growing. So my worry would be that while you would have a, an awareness in Donegal, to do it because of just the, the scale of the crisis in this county and others, you may not be aware of it as much down the country.
So my fear would be that there will be people right now purchasing a second, not going through maybe the, the necessary due diligence because the, there's not an awareness in the county that they're living in and find themselves in this nightmare down the, down the road. So I'm not convinced the two responses I've received.
So, uh, that's, that there's enough oversight of this? No, No.
So it'd be up to the purchaser to test the, the blocks first?
Yeah.
Grant:
And is that, isn't that like several thousand euros worth?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah, that's right. Certainly in Donegal, uh, I know people who have, uh, sought to purchase secondhand homes and they've had to pay the cost of the engineers costs. So certainly it's, it's in the, the realms as I understand it, of three, four, 5,000 euro, you know, for a house that you're not even certain you're going to buy.
So it's a, and for people who will be on, maybe if you think about a typical home buyer right now, they don't have a big margin. You know, that there's a clear, um, uh, central bank framework around how much savings, um, you know, how much of a mortgage they can get. They don't have a lot of wriggle room. So if you add on three, four, 5,000, so.
Grant:
And you might see  two or three houses. Um,
Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah.
With the competition that's.
It's, it's not, It's not satisfactory. Uh, I, I, I do think that needs further probing. Yeah. Absolutely.
You know, When we're in the Dáil, when the legislation was being forced through one of the ushers, I was asking him about who the people were above the Cathaoirleach, you know, the journalists there. Were you disappointed with the turnout by the journalists and they didn't seem to be present for the whole meeting, the whole debate and,  Do you have any reflections on media spin? I just wonder what your views in general are.
Yeah, I mean, you could see that that's, um, in 2021. I, I, I mean, it was a phenomenal effort, uh, you know, starting with that core group of homeowners. But they went onto the space of Twitter and, and so they understood that that's where journalists, uh, pay attention to most in terms of the social media space.
And they really started to put large numbers of homeowners onto that Twitter space and insist upon being heard. They would've engaged with journalists. So there, there was clearly a period where the mainstream journalists nationally, um, you know, and, and journalists in general. Um, were coming aware of the scale of this crisis, this scandal, this injustice, and, and their, their stories were being told.
And pressure has been applied in government to do the right thing, but, but there was a turning point whenever the government announces in October of 2021, uh, stroke November, uh, that there, there was going to be a, a, an updated scheme. They talked about 420,000 euro of cap and 2.7 billion, and that was intentional.
And because what they were doing was... the concerned person down the country who is a, you know, a good empathetic Irish citizen saying, you've gotta help them poor people in Donegal, Mayo and Clare. You've gotta help them. You can't abandon them. Whenever they started here, okay, they're getting 420,000 euro, which wasn't the case, as we know, in every, .In every house.
It's, it's, it's it's square metre. Up to a maximum of 420. Um, So many people will not be getting anywhere near 420. But whenever that figure was put out there, that was to create this issue's solved. Now it's fine. Sure you're getting 420,000. It's all fine. It's all good. And that wasn't the case. And there was all sorts of, um, you know, sort of, uh, you know, watch out for the small print in the legislation and issues.
Now I think the government succeeded in quelling the sense of anger. And, and, And a lot of journalists were included in that, that I think switched off from the issue and felt sure this issue sorted now. Um, And they weren't paying attention to the detail, with the honorable exception of some. But I could count on maybe one hand, the amount of journalists who continue to maintain a focus on this issue and, and have an understanding this issue is far from resolved.
Um, So yeah, it is frustrating. How, how fickle, um, that space can be. Um, but we, we, you know, we, we, we will keep at it. Next year we'll tell its own story. When the scheme's up and running,  and the problems will come through again, then I think we will probably have to go back at this on another level again.
Grant:
Sometimes I've wondered, you know, who's in charge in the department? Is it the minister making the decisions or is it the civil servants telling him what to do? And adding on to that if, if Sinn Féin came into power, would you be dealing with a difficult situation with the civil servants, or how do you see that?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah. Mean we, we, We certainly have at the higher echelons of the, of the, the Civil service, public service in Ireland, there, there is a, a conservatism, uh, and there's a sense of, you know, protecting the state for unforeseen consequences, words like that or, um, from liability um, and often that can be quite cruel and cold towards people who are victims.
And in this case, the families across Ireland who purchased effective blocks are victims in the most cruel way. Um, So there is an issue there. Um, The other issue is that you have ministers that are fully on top of their brief. Uh, and I think that with, Eoin Ó Broin, who is our offering to the Irish people as the next minister for housing...
um, I, I think that Owen is ideologically committed, you know, you know, uh, uh, you know, committed to justice. Uh, he, he, He's written a book "Defects", uh, on this very issue, and he has tracked the legislative failures, the political failures, the oversight, the regulation failures that led to this, this, this crisis that is the pyrite crisis in Dublin, north Leinster.
That's the defective block crisis, which is not just the west of Ireland, but a growing part of Ireland. And of course,  the apartment defects, um, the poorly constructed, uh, buildings throughout the country. Most of this comes from the Celtic Tiger era of greed. Uh, and so, you know, we, we, we certainly in Eoin, uh, have somebody who is absolutely committed and would not be bamboozled by civil servants in terms of doing what's right.
Grant:
But the civil servants stay on regardless of whose power is of the case?
Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah, they do. But I mean, to be quite clear, the buck stops with the minister. So the minister has to make the decision, and that's why, uh, democracy, if it's working properly, you know, should have that protection for the citizen. I mean, if, If you're a TD, you're directly elected by the people and you can be directly unelected by the people, um, at the next election.
So you need to listen to your people or you pay the price of losing your seat and losing power. So, um, for a minister or a TD you really need to do what is right or you're out. Um, and, and so we're very clear that, um, we, we hope it doesn't have to take Sinn Féin being in power to do what's right. We will agitate until the next election.
We'll agitate every week, every month to make this right. But if it takes us going into power, so be it. And we, we will, in cooperation with the, with the leading homeowners, we, we will deliver a scheme. Um, that is, that is a just scheme for our people, you
Grant:
Second last question now. Um, Do you have any views on the idea for setting up a mica party?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Well, I mean that, that's very much down to the homeowners. Like we've never advised them on strategy. You know, Obviously they had um, talked about running candidates in election. That is their right. Um, you know, Our job, uh, in Sinn Féin is to assure people as to what we would do to be quite clear about that. Um, Our housing spokesperson Eoin Ó Broin, in a number of interviews on Highland Radio has clearly spelled out what, uh, Sinn Féin would do as opposed to what this government is doing right now. So we'll make that case to the people at the next election. Um, and we've renewed our commitment to a hundred percent. We will publish the legislation to amend the scheme, uh, this legislation now, uh, in the next month, we'll introduce it in January, February next year.
Um, But I suppose to answer your question, we've, I've been quite long winded. That, That's down to the campaigners to decide. I mean, Obviously I hope that from a Sinn Féin perspective, we've demonstrated, uh, you know, clearly enough that by electing as many Sinn Féin TDs as possible, that's the best way to get justice, uh, is to try to ensure a Sinn Féin led government at the next election to do that.
But again, that's down to  the campaign field. That's something they need to do. That's entirely their right and I respect that.
Grant:
I lived in Cork for a long time and the last election there in Cork South Central, forgive me now, I cant pronounce your candidate's name properly, but Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire?
Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah. Yeah.
Grant:
How do you say that properly?
Pádriag Mac Lochlainn:
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire.
Grant:
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire.
And he won on the first count and the current Taoiseach I mean, I think he only got in on the seventh count or something.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah.
Grant:
Can you give us any insights into the Sinn Féin strategy for the next election?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
Yeah. I mean, We need to run more candidates. I mean, you know, we, we, we, we just, we, we had a disappointing local and European elections in 2019 and we therefore based our strategy, in 2020 based on, you know, recent elections. And it turned out, you know, that we, we, we, we just didn't see the level of support that was coming to us.
The people were ahead of us in terms of that election. We won't make that mistake again. We will run, um, the number of candidates required for us to lead the next government. You know, We, we are determined now to, you know, deliver the change that our people needs.
You know, many of our senior TDs, uh, have been around a long time. I mean, I'm, I'm 20 years as public representative of the likes of Pearce Doherty, Mary Lou McDonald, you know, uh, David Cullinane. So many of us you know, have been around for, for 20 years. Uh, so we're not Johnny come latelies. We've worked a long time to give people an alternative. Um, so in terms of Donegal, you know, we'll run at least three candidates, um, in the next election.
We need to, uh, and we'll, we'll seek to elect as many Sinn Féin TDs as possible. And in terms of this project, I mean, I, I think now that it, it probably will take a Sinn Féin led government to deliver a scheme that is the right scheme for people all across this country.
Grant:
That's great. Thank you very much for time.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:
My pleasure.
The next interview
The next interview will be with Josephine Kelly, one of the main admins for Mary Morrison's 2 Facebook groups, and her partner Sean McGee.
They can share some experience of how well or otherwise outer leaf remediation works. I hope you'll tune in to find out how they got on.